In a recent folk on folk attack Joni Mitchell had a snipe at Bob Dylan. In an interview with the LA Times she said:
Bob is not authentic at all. He’s a plagiarist, and his name and voice are fake. Everything about Bob is a deception. We are like night and day, he and I.
Dylan has come in for a bit of criticism for plagiarism, especially on his latest album Modern Times, so we thought we’d have a little examination of whether there was anything to the charge.
One of the major accusations is he takes words from Henry Timrod, a poet of the American civil war, for his latest album Modern Times. Here’s the offending example:
Henry Timrod:
A round of precious hours.
Oh! here, in that summer
noon I basked.
And strove; with logic frailer than
the flowers.
Dylan:
More frailer than the flowers,
these precious hours.
There were also a few lines on the album that looked like they had been taken from the roman poet Ovid:
- “Workingman’s Blues #2″- No one can ever claim/That I took up arms against you. Ovid (Tristia, Book 2, Lines 51-53) – no one can claim that I ever took up arms against you.
- “Ain’t Talkin’” – Every nook and cranny has its tears. Ovid (Tristia, Book 1, Section 3, Line 24) – every nook and corner had its tears.
- “The Levee’s Gonna Break” – Some people got barely enough skin to cover their bones. Ovid (Tristia, Book 4, Section 7, Line 51) – there’s barely enough skin to cover my bones.
- “Spirit on the Water” – Can’t believe these things would ever fade from your mind. Ovid (Black Sea Letters, Book 2, Section 4, Line 24) – I cannot believe these things could fade from your mind.
It was also reported last year that James Damiano had successfully sued Dylan over the song dignity, for while the lyrics had been attributed to Dylan for over 15 years by his record company. Whether this was Dylan’s doing though is very unclear.
Christie’s, the auctioneers, were also left red faced last year after they put up for auction an original handwritten version of the poem Little Christie, supposedly written by Dylan as a teenager and submitted by him to a Wisconsin paper – it was soon pointed out that most of the words actually came from a country singer who had recorded it as a song 11 years before the supposed Dylan poem was written. Dylan would only have been 16 when this was created though.
There are a few more examples that can be given, but in the end they don’t serve to make the charges against him any stronger. Dylan’s lines do bear a resemblance to much that has gone before. However, he has admitted that his song writing method involved meditating on previous works. Dylan does mix up the words, and they do only form snippets of much larger song. Given the huge body of work he has produced, taking direct inspiration from a few sources is surely just par for the course.
Picture Courtesy of Badosa
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20 comments
Ryan Mitchell says:
Apr 25, 2010
Joni Mitchell clearly has some misunderstandings about how song and poetry work. Dylan never claimed that he came up with the phrase “Precious Hours” or “enough skin to cover their bones” himself. Writers often incorporate interesting phrases from other writers, or reference other pieces of writing. Dylan borrows bits and pieces from classical poetry — so what? There are countless examples, similar to this, from Dylan’s earlier songs as well. Check out “Dylan’s Visions of Sin,” for more examples (it’s a good book if you’re interested in how Dylan’s poems are constructed!)
rodney west says:
Apr 25, 2010
i should have seen this coming after her last cd she lost in self importance,
gail says:
Apr 25, 2010
I do not pretend to know about the way or how Bob writes or is inspired to write. But this all seems a little petty. To use the words I love you in a song (as many writers do) is this also plagiarism. These words have been used and written multitudes. The meaning can mean so little to one and mean so much to another. We use sayings many days of our lives that are not orginal but are new in the context of the moment. Why do people stumble on a grain of sand and not the boulder.
Barber says:
Apr 25, 2010
Couldn’t agree more. We’ve laid out in detail the charges against him, but they just don’t hold enough water.
john says:
Apr 25, 2010
his body of work is way to big to take this crap seriously. fyi he won the case over dignity and as far as him more or less paying tribute to a few of his favorite poets on about 10 or so instances when the man has written thousands of songs how is he a plagiarist. give me a break. say he did knowingly steal to create modern times and maybe a few chord progressions and songs which he was uncredited for on his first album. he still without a doubt wrote bringing it all back home, highway 61, jon wesley harding, blood on the tracks etc. those albums alone are 10 times greater than anything that jealous washed up joni has and ever will create
Tommy says:
Apr 26, 2010
Well, I believe that writing for a real literary genius such as Dylan is also a subconscious process. Any writer’s head is bound to be filled with influences, including phrases he’s heard or read. That’s normal, not plagiarism.
However, I’ve always wondered how Dylan could get away with taking so many tunes and crediting them to himself in the early days. Many, many songs list Dylan as writer when in fact the tunes had been around for centuries. The records should have acknowledged that.
Of course, Dylan is not a plagiarist. He’s a genius.
nick ward says:
Apr 26, 2010
http://nickwardscenarios.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/big-nod-to-slim-dusty/ Bob Dylan and Emily Dickinson
its the way folk works, folks…
God says:
Apr 26, 2010
There’s TONS more of this where it came from… huge amounts of Chronicles, loads of melodies and lyrics… Zimmerman’s a plagiarist BIG TIME.
Worshipful lemmings will go to their graves in full denial, of course.
There isn’t a lick of sense in pop scene fanboys anyway.
Listen to real blues, not entertainer phonies.
Kevin says:
Apr 26, 2010
If Dylan is a plagiarist, how come his songs are like none other that has ever been written?
Raph says:
Apr 26, 2010
Two things: (1) Joni in particular and (2) Bob and plagiarism.
(1) Joni should be ashamed of herself. Sure HE once covered one of her songs and even added a verse (which she sings – why would she sing a verse from a “fake” songwriter ???). Obviously, Bob paying her such a compliment got to her head, which did not need the extra attention – swollen as it already was. Then Bob goes on to mention his favourite songwriters and – what an insult – not only she was not at the top of the list (like her lyrics WOULD come close to John Prine’s ????), but she did not make the list. Now to add further injury, another Canadian made the list (Lightfoot) !!! So now she is PISSED at BOB and lashes out like a woman scorned… (there is no fury … I stop before she calls me a fake for copying this sentence)…
I once saw her in Ottawa as opening act for Bob, in her own backyard, and she was treated by her own folk as such: Opening act, time to go get snacks, chat, and argue over what BOB will sing …
NOW for the IMPORTANT topic:
(2) BOB the PLAGIARIST.
There is clear evidence, indisputable, overwhelming, undeniable that he got AT LEAST a DOZEN lines from other songwriters. OK !!!! Include Dignity and make it 100 lines. Now that is a very BIG number. Of course, 600+ songs averaging say 80-90 lines per song = around 50,000 lines OR MORE. So we conclude (mathematics don’t lie) that approximately 0.2% of Bob’s songwriting is inspired by other poets, writers and artists.
So he is only 99.8% perfectly amazing as a song-writer.
Well I would say: Fantabulous !!! (yes we all know where this comes from)…
Anyone want to go comb through Joni’s songs and calculate her % of palgiaristic inspiration ???
Not worth the effort to me.
JD says:
Apr 26, 2010
Christopher Ricks, the foremost Dylanologist in the world, called some of Modern Times plagiarism.
Dylan is both a genius AND a thief, no doubt about it. He’s stolen much over the years without giving any credit to the original sources, and I’m not just talking about folk tunes.
But I think he’s still a genius. But he’s used this reputation to get away with high crimes and misdemeanors of which he’ll pay no price.
dss says:
Apr 26, 2010
A phrase here and there is not plagerism. Look at the Timrod poem. It’s more than three times longer and he calls his logic frail, while Dylan makes it the hours themselves that are frail. It’s more powerful.
As long as he makes it better, provids a different context (and thereby a different meaning) its not plagerism. Consider it a reference or building up from the past.
yeemanee says:
Apr 26, 2010
i agree 100% with you raph
mabuk says:
Apr 26, 2010
‘Talent borrows, genius steals.’
Ric says:
Apr 26, 2010
I saw Joni Mitchell open for Dylan at Georgia Tech in Atlanta about a decade ago. Some people walked around during her set, but most listened politely and applauded enthusiastically. At one point about halfway through her set, someone hollered, “Where’s Bob?!”. It was a big crowd and only the people near the guy heard him. At that point, Joni launched a verbal attack on the guy, scolding him and calling him rude and ungrateful. I remember thinking what a bitch she was. A pro would have ignored him. I haven’t had much for her since. I think her latest comments on Dylan are just the rantings of an old bitter woman who can’t sell any new songs any more.
Larry Kosofsky says:
Apr 27, 2010
Bob’s a genius and a plagiarist…the two are not incompatible – it’s been said before: the great ones know what to do with what they steal. And hey, it’s only rock ‘n’ roll (or “folk” or country or blues or gospel). The funny thing is that Joni is well known to be, shall we say, a bit grumpy at times, and this certainly is true of Mr. D. as well…a tempest in a teapot at best. Listen to the music, feel it, and to hell with the details.
Steve S. says:
Apr 27, 2010
From where do the words come from if someone had read extensively in areas of poetry or listened to vast amounts of music, even in one genre? Then you sit down and be creative and these words come into your mind perhaps years later with no recall of where they came from, but you think they fit well in a song. Is that plagiarism? Our very lives and personalities; how much of them come from parents or family or friends over years or actors or singer or authors? We speak the talk and talk the speak and does it come from us within or memories that belong to us from somewhere or someone else? So what is plagiarism? Look at some of the things Dylan is accused of. Could those words not be from a “general” direction in relation to what I just shared? What book author does not “borrow” without even knowing it, a phrase, or an idea, or a pithy statement from a memory he doesn’t even know originated from someone else? Unless there is clear, specific, unique, precise, word for word evidence; then can Bob really be blamed for the “legal” definition of plagiarism?
Robert Mangion says:
May 6, 2010
Dylan has always worked and appropreiated across genre, never pinned down to one style, in fact he is anti style, but then again so have the most inonvative artist of the 20th century, one thinks of Duchamp or Picasso or Warhol.
In this contemporary age of intertextuality,
of weaving influences from an alread rich fabric,
of adding to it expanding it
and in turn allowing others to do as they will with what they encounter… what is originatlity…
FieldofCards says:
Aug 11, 2010
Dylan also used a rhyming dictionary to come up with lyrics. How dare he! I’m certain many of the words he rhymed had been used in rhymes before.
I mean, in the same article Joni railed against Janis Joplin and Grace Slick for sleeping with their band mates and getting drunk.
So we know she hates Dylan for being influenced by other minds of genius, and she hates Joplin and Slick for having sex and drinking in the 60′s. Oh, and she thinks the 80′s were when people started acting greedy and shallow.
When she isn’t saying something stupid she’s saying something obvious. She sounds like Larry King.
Joni is a bozo.
Jacob Jones says:
Nov 5, 2010
It is true that every artist is a cannibal and a thief but that doesnt change the fact that some artists are more so than others. If you want to compare Joni to Dylan it is pretty clear that Joni is far more innovative musically, both in terms of song writing and performance. As for lyrics, well that is a matter of taste I guess, Dylan has certainly written some great stuff regardless of the fact that he is a little too much the cannibal.